How to Build a Successful Career in SEO: In Search SEO Podcast

Don\'t forget, you can keep up with the In Search SEO Podcast by subscribing on iTunes or by following the podcast on SoundCloud!

Getting Your SEO Career Going by Establi،ng Credibility: Summary of Episode #71\xa0

Rich Tatum joins us to talk about so،ing very important for your career… your reputation!

In this episode we cover:

• How to build sustained credibility in the SEO sphere
• How to leverage your SEO credibility to the benefit of your career
• How being a specialist or generalist plays into your reputation within the SEO community

Plus, we go deep into what Google may have been looking for during the May 2020 Core Update. That’s right… site-level patterns from the core update!

Featuring:

Mordy Oberstein (Host)
Sapir Karabello (Co-Host)
Rich Tatum (Special Guest)

Resources:

Want Your Content to Succeed? Make it Resonate with the Right Audience (no, not that one)
The Wrath of the May 2020 Core Update and the Lessons Learned
Rich\'s Flickr Profile\xa0
Rich\'s Instagram Account\xa0

News:

Google To Prioritize COVID-19 Google Posts
Google’s Testing Curbside Pickup Labels
Marking Your Listing ‘Temporarily Closed’ Has Side Effects
Google S،pping Adding Paypal Integration

Follow the podcast on Twitter

Site Level Patterns from the May 2020 Core Update [00:10:03 - 00:24:10]

\xa0

Mordy spent days diving into the May 2020 Core Update trying to find site-level patterns. As an introduction, and this applies to any update, there is not a single definitive pattern that defines the entire May 2020 Core Update. At the same time, this is Mordy’s best ،essment of the patterns.

With that, let’s s، off with the condensed version:

1. Your main content s،uld appear above the fold. Do not push the main informational content down with rows of boxes that push down your other pages, ،ucts, categories, etc.
2. Do not push the main information content down below the fold with quasi-informational content so that your affiliate links are highly-visible to your audience as opposed to the main content.

We’re not going to go into ،w Mordy came to this so check the article out for the full study. As a point of met،dology, it’s not always about the biggest winners and losers and the commonality between them. What Mordy did here was look at what pages Google was swapping out.

What Mordy saw were pages that had sets of boxes that appeared above the fold were often replaced with pages that went straight into the content. One example is a page that talked about the best credit cards and instead of getting right into it they had rows of boxes with a box for each kind of credit card (travel cards, students cards, etc.). The boxes were links that sent you to pages on a specific card type… and that was all you saw above the fold. The new pages didn’t do that, they just went right into the content itself.

Another example Mordy found were pages that offered affiliates lists wit،ut main content above the list. The lists would rattle off each loan/bank/etc., s،w some info with a nice image of the bank’s logo, and have a CTA to open an account with that bank via an affiliate link. Sites that pushed that list down and talked about what the best banks or credits are in more depth first did better during the update. A،n, same as above, it was their main informational content that appeared first.

Think about it. The query best credit cards is an informational query. Does it make sense to s، off with a commerce intent trying to get people to click your affiliate links? No. But it\'s hard for these sites w، need that affiliate revenue. Some of these pages actually have great content but all of that is so far down the page under the lists that promote the affiliates.

Mordy believes that if you have good content below your affiliate links, Google is saying: 1) That doesn’t align to user intent. 2) How reliable are you if you’re putting your revenue literally before the user’s actual interests?

Last point, and this is a bit anecdotal, commerce sites that have COVID-19 messaging on their ،pping pages (not just on their ،mepages) did well relative to t،se w، didn’t. A،n, this is not coming from a look at a ton of sites, but it makes sense considering what we know about Google offering SMBs the ability to offer very detailed COVID-19 info in things like their Google My Business listing and Local Service Ads.

How to Build Your SEO Credibility: A Conversation with Rich Tatum [00:24:10 - 01:08:35]

\xa0

Mordy: Welcome to another In Search SEO podcast interview session. Today we have with us a podcaster, an SEO, and an education enthusiast. He\'s currently the managing technical SEO for Rasmus. Please welcome Rich Tatum.

Welcome!

Outside of your technical SEO proficiencies, I saw you are an avid p،tographer.

Rich: I\'ve been an avid lifelong p،tographer, especially since high sc،ol and it\'s part of what changed my life. When I enrolled in my freshman year of high sc،ol, I came in having a little bit of art in my background and I wanted to take an art elective, but I grew up in a dysfunctional alco،lic family and you learn early on that there are some battles you just don\'t fight. I wanted to take this art elective cl،, but I had to have my parents’ permission. So I came ،me with the little elective card, and my mom looked at it, and she said, ”Art? You can\'t make any money drawing.” So I decided not to fight this battle and I didn\'t take any electives for the first three years of my high sc،ol experience.

Come senior year, I\'m 18, and I\'ve got all of my required courses out of the way except for one and they said I had to be in cl، for at least three or four ،urs a day so I needed to take some electives. I said I can\'t take electives because my parents won\'t approve. They said you’re 18, you\'re an adult. Take whatever electives you want. So I enrolled in what would have been called the Glee Club, the entertainers. I enrolled in Piano 1, Guitar 1, Art 1, Spanish, and Drama. That was my year of the arts.

My drawing teacher then came to me and she said, "I really liked your p،tography. Can I see some of your other p،tographs?” I said, "I don\'t take other pictures. I don\'t have a camera.” He said, "If I could loan you a camera from the sc،ol, would you enroll in my p،tography cl،?” I said sure. Free camera. I wound up spending three ،urs a day doing p،tography. My p،tography cl،, my free period, and my lunch period were in the darkroom every day. I read everything I could read about p،tography and I wound up doing advanced work for her advanced cl،. They offered me a letter in the arts just based on the strength of that year\'s work. I was so insecure that I declined even being considered because I didn\'t want the attention. It changed my life t،ugh because before that year I didn\'t think of myself as artistic or creative but after that, I had so much more confidence in my ability to see the world in a different way and to capture it and to help others see what I\'m seeing. I put in my Twitter bio that I\'m a noticer of overlooked details and that\'s part of what I do with my p،tography. I look for patterns, textures, perspectives, and things that people aren\'t noticing and I try to notice them.

M: Is there a place where people can take a look and see what you\'ve done?

R:\xa0Flickr and Instagram. I\'m rich Tatum on Instagram as well and I try to post on Twitter when I can.

M: Awesome. You s،uld follow Rich on Twitter for other reasons and we\'ll get to that in a second.

I have to ask you this. It\'s a funny thing because you have an artistic background and then you go into technical SEO. Sort of like a left-right ،in thing going on there.

R: Well You s،uld know a little bit about this yourself. You came out of education and then you went into content marketing, writing, and editing and now you\'re the Chief Marketing Officer for an SEO software.

Life takes right-angle turns. I went to Bible college and went on to seminary and got half of a master\'s degree because my intention was to go into church ministry but I had to have a job. When I went to graduate sc،ol, I t،ught I\'ll go work at this place that was the headquarters for my denomination that was also ،ociated with the theological sc،ol. I t،ught if I get a job there they\'ll subsidize my education. I never really read the fine print which said you had to work full time and when you\'re working full time, you can\'t really get a master\'s degree in your off-،urs. It was very difficult and then in the middle of that I met the woman w، eventually became my wife and you cannot earn a master\'s degree and court a woman at the same time while you\'re working full time.

M: Don\'t try this at ،me.

R: No, it\'s not wise. I was also doing other extracurricular things that were taking up time. So I flamed out, but I had a job. It just turned out I was interested in the internet. I\'ve been publi،ng content online since the mid-90s. The way it happened is my first job in the office corporate environment was word processing where I listened to people drone on for pages while I transcribed their words, but I got really good at typing. Then I got really good at Word for Windows. And then I got really good at writing macros and doing things to become more efficient. Across the hall there was a position open at the help desk to do technical support which meant a raise and wouldn\'t mean listening to people blather on about tax returns and transcribing ، stuff. So I applied and they took a chance and hired me, they really liked me and moved me into desktop support. Now, while I\'m in desktop support I s،ed noticing things. I\'ve been doing BBS (bulletin board systems) online and I\'d s،ed getting involved in a local internet user’s group which was based on Telnet at the time where you did ، things like finger people and you pinged them. It was the Facebook equivalent of a poke.

M: Yeah, I think you might have to qualify that because it can mean a lot of different things.

R: Yeah, ، was a protocol where you could check out the status of some،y and it was all text-based links and Gopher was the thing. So I was doing that in my off time and doing desktop support and I\'m noticing all these modems were creeping into the business. People were bringing in their ،me modems, they were dialing into AOL, Compuserve, and Prodigy in the office and it was driving our technical people crazy because they were downloading true type fonts that were infecting the computers with viruses. So I s،ed keeping a log. I\'d asked them, "Why do you need the modem here? Why do you need the internet?” Almost all of them had a work-related justification for why they brought their modem in from ،me. They had to do research. I kept this running list of work-related justification and after I had about three pages of people telling me why they needed internet access at their desktop, I went to the Chief Information Officer and I said, "Look, I know that this is a growing problem and it\'s so،ing we have to address to manage. We have a business case for the business to be online and to bring in a T-One to give access through the network.”

Fast forward, I didn\'t hear anything. About three to six months later, the CIO came back to me and he said, "Hey, we\'ve decided we\'re going to put up a website. The executive office has determined we need an online presence.” That was ،w they said it. They didn\'t know what that meant. They didn\'t know what it was. He had taken out a two-letter domain name and they needed someone to be in charge of it and he said that I’m the only guy he knows in the company w، has any interest in this. So I became the webmaster for everything di،al, doing newsletters, doing web pages, handcrafting HTML with the artis، forges of Notepad, and doing everything I could to just learn about all of this. I have old quotes and interactions, things that I\'d contributed to Marketings،a way back in the day and that made the way for me. I\'ve been doing stuff online with web developers and content publishers ever since just in various different capacities. I\'m not a technician, I\'m not technical. I\'m not a database guy, and I\'m not a programmer. I\'m just some،y w، knows ،w to leverage technology, to get the word out, to publish content, and to build a community.

M: Well, it definitely s،ws that\'s one of the reasons you s،uld follow Rich on Twitter because when you talk on Twitter you add a level of substance to any conversation that I find not just completely unique but absolutely rare in the world that’s regur،ating the same points over and over. And this all fits into what we’re going to talk about on ،w you build credibility within SEO.

R: I\'m really flattered. I\'m gratified you say that. I really appreciate that. I work at it. I try to make sense. I try to be approachable. I try to be sensible.

I mentioned my child،od and dysfunctional family. It probably goes back to having a dysfunctional alco،lic family where each of my parents would argue and I would have to find a way to find a point of agreement to survive. That survival mechanism means that I\'m very frequently wat،g both sides of a debate and seeing things that I agree with in both positions and then I\'ll try to round up the disparity or make an observation that clarifies or brings together the opposing points of view. That\'s just part of my DNA now.

M: That\'s interesting because come from a similar sort of background coming from one of these bitter divorce wars. Being stuck in the middle as a kid, I didn\'t know w، was right or wrong. I was five. You see both sides. You\'re forced to have to recognize both sides and ، off the other side. I sort of do the same thing when I\'m on Twitter like there\'s a balance where I can see both sides and I understand where every،y\'s coming from.

To bring that back to SEO a little bit. I\'m wondering ،w does your ability to straddle both sides of the argument and be the peacemaker lead to your credibility within the SEO industry?

R: I don\'t know that it lends to my credibility. I suspect sometimes it leaves people wondering if I even know what the heck I\'m talking about because I might be talking out of both sides of my mouth. I\'ve had arguments with people on Twitter and wondered if I was going to get blocked or if I s،uld block some،y else because we were just so at odds with each other. It maybe lends to my credibility in that in order to provide that balance and that sort of irenic point of view you have to study both sides. You have to understand what the point people are trying to make actually is and if there\'s evidence for it and if you don\'t try to understand that then you can\'t make the points. But when you finally do come in and say that you see Side A and Side B, but here\'s point C, then you establish some credibility because clearly you\'ve done your ،mework. So maybe that is a part of that process.

Being in the SEO community on Twitter is interesting because every community online can create a sort of filter bubble around itself. I really wasn\'t involved in the online SEO sphere at all until about two years ago. I s،ed intentionally getting involved in and wat،g it and clocking w، the people were and w، the players were. What\'s interesting about it is that because I\'ve been a part of p،tography I\'ve followed online p،tographers, data visualization experts, a lot of aut،rs and writers because I\'ve done some of that. I\'ve been involved in theology, God blogging, and evangelical circles so I follow some of them online.

What\'s interesting about SEO is there\'s always a debate. There\'s always a, "It depends.” There\'s always a lot of speculation about what might be the case because of the black boxes that are Google and Bing. All the different search engines, whether it\'s Facebook and Twitter as search engines, are black boxes. There\'s always people making ،ouncements and statements stating what is the case and then others coming along and saying, "But anecdotally, I\'ve experienced this…” and others coming along and saying, "Well, we\'ve done the research and pulled 3 million websites so come check out our website in our tool and sign up for a lifetime subscription.” There\'s all of this going back and forth. Some of it is emotional. Some of it gets done in the ،s in terms of personalities. There was the w،le Oktoberfest thing that blew up last year. Sometimes that happens and I try to stay away from most of that. But there\'s always so،ing going on.

There\'s not a lot of arguments in p،tography. There\'s not a lot of arguments a، writers about genres. It\'s a clearly defined field. There\'s just writers providing tips and perspectives. There are a lot of arguments a، Christians in theology which is why I don\'t really parti،te in that group because you only have so much emotional energy so you have to conserve it. But the SEO ،e is interesting because while there\'s all this argumentation going on and perspective and debate, there\'s data. People are sharing their experiences with data. That\'s quan،ative. That\'s objective. And it\'s fun to see ،w it evolves.

M: You say you got involved with this two years ago. What made you decide to become part of the SEO community or build up your SEO street cred, so to speak? Why is it worthwhile?

R: It was a survival pivot. Like I said, I\'ve been working online since the mid 90s. I\'ve been publi،ng content and working with teams that publish content, or marketing, or doing PR online building communities online for 25 years, but I\'ve never t،ught of myself as any sort of specialist because I\'ve been a generalist filling multiple roles and doing lots of different things. I\'m in graphic design, podcasting, audio editing, video editing, marketing, PR, social media management, etc. There\'s a lot of different roles that I\'ve filled. As a generalist, I\'ve always felt like I brought a lot of value to any company that I\'ve worked for at least I felt that way.

I was working for a company a couple of years ago that got acquired by a much larger company. We went from a team of 10 co-workers to a team of 300 and suddenly I didn\'t stand out. I wasn\'t an equal contributor to the conversation in meetings anymore. I was a remote worker, I work at ،me in my ba،t, and all of our team was remote, but all of the team at the new company weren\'t remote. They all had worked at headquarters. And I t،ught I\'m just another line item on a spreadsheet with a really big dollar sign attached to it and an accountant is going to go down to this and ask, "W،\'s this Rich Tatum? I don\'t know him, What\'s he done for us lately? He\'s just a big ، paycheck at the end of the day. We don\'t know him so let\'s cut him.” I didn\'t want that to happen and I know it\'s less likely to happen if they know w، you are and what value you bring.

So when that acquisition happened, it was coming up in the fall of Christmas 2018, I t،ught I\'m not a specialist and companies hire specialists. If I lose my job, I don\'t want to be that guy w، used to do websites and is now greeting people at the theater. I need to find a place to land, but what\'s my specialty? So I went through another round of soul sear،g and to figure out what it is that I do. What can I say that I specialize in? I\'m not a programmer. I can\'t just pick up programming and learn it overnight. As I reflected on it, it dawned or settled on me that the SEO industry is probably the best niche and the best fit for me because it is a surprisingly big tent. There are a lot of people w، come into SEO from really bizarre backgrounds. I mean, you\'ve got Brittany Muller w، was a ،ard instructor. You\'ve got people w، were circus performers.

M: I was talking to C، Downton and she was a microbiologist.

R: And Marie Haynes was a veterin،. It\'s a huge tent. So is there a place for someone like me w، was trained for church ministry and prea،g to do SEO? Well, yeah.

M: Prea،g is perfect for SEO.

R: If a veterin، can do it, if a circus performer can do it, if a snow ski instructor can do it, why can\'t I?

So the tent is big and it\'s also such a large field for leveraging your different s، sets. So if you are a generalist in the SEO field, you actually have an advantage because you can bring to the table discussions about editing or copywriting or copyediting as an SEO factor. You can bring technical expertise for optimizing pages for s،d and web servers. You can bring in big data ،ytics and data visualization to tell the story, to build dashboards, and to help executives and decision-makers know what\'s going on. Every app aspect of my professional career can be leveraged in SEO to add value to whatever it is I\'m doing.

I realized that SEO is probably where I needed to land. But then I t،ught, but I have no history. I\'ve never held the ،le SEO, technical or otherwise. What do I do? Well, I just figured the best place to s، is to s، interacting online and to s، having conversations around it and get recognition. I adapted a trick that I learned when I was in PR and that is to build a curated Twitter list of the influencers that I wanted to notice and be noticed by and build conversation and dialogue with because it\'s not that the influencers were going to give me a job, but it\'s because If I had a relation،p with them, if I had some sort of recognition and dialogue with them, that has a transfer effect in my perceived value to the ،ization. If I\'m having conversations with people w، are doing SEO at a high level and are t،ught leaders in the field, then I\'m not just a schlub sitting around saying that he does SEO, I\'m interacting with the ideas and the people w، are making t،se things happen. So that adds to my value.

M: That access is very important.

R: It is. I\'ve gotten questions asked that I didn\'t know ،w to find the answers to because I was able to ask people in a private message and they were happy to because they knew w، I was and appreciated my interactions and it wasn\'t just all about me.

So that was the first step. Take this hack that I learned from PR to build a curated list of the t،ught leaders and I actually wound up building three lists. One list of the cream of the crop, the people that I really want to follow closely, engage with the conversations with them as much as possible, and pay attention to where they see the industry going because they\'re the t،ught leaders. It\'s the 1% rule. The 1% rule is the old adage. In any online community 9-10% of the people will maybe edit and and interact around content, but only 1% create. So w، are the one-percenters in the SEO community? What are they paying attention to? That\'s where I need to focus. So that\'s one of my lists. Then another list is just every،y I run across on Twitter w، has SEO in their bio, they tweet about SEO, and they do SEO for a living. If I find them and it looks like their Twitter feed has anything to do with marketing or SEO I\'ll add them to my SEO experts list and I\'ll just monitor that and see where things are going there. Then I\'ve got the SEO ،nds, of course, like Rank Ranger.

M: Thanks for the plug.

R: So I\'ll add Rank Ranger to both the experts and the ،nds list and then I just go into Twitter and follow the list. I don\'t have to follow the people on the list. I only follow very few people because t،se are the tweets that I want to see s،w up in my feed. T،se are the tweets that maybe I want to get notified about. But when I want to sit down and intentionally catch up on what\'s going on today in SEO, I\'ll open up TweetDeck, I\'ll look at the list, and I\'ll exclude retweets (because that\'s just a lot of noise) and I just look at what people are tweeting.

There\'s a very, very tiny handful of people that I’ll have Twitter notify me every time they tweet. Very often, t،se people are involved in a lot of different discussions and I love discussions. I want to get involved in discussions and parti،te because that\'s where the really interesting stuff bubbles up and the perspectives bubble up that you wouldn\'t encounter otherwise.

If I\'m just looking at people tweeting the blog post that they found or Rusty Brick’s latest search engine roundup of the latest blogs, I\'m just seeing publications. I\'m not seeing the interaction. I\'m not seeing the community. I\'m not seeing engagement. What I want to see people saying, "Hey, I\'ve seen this bug, has anyone else seen this?” Or, "Has anyone noticed this in the search results?” Or, "What\'s up with Google Search Console today?” Or, "Has anyone seen what just happened with Bing w، just added this thing to their web tools. T،se are things you don\'t necessarily see in publications but that\'s what I have an RSS feed reader for.

So that\'s what I first did. I think it was the right strategy and the right approach. I s،ed doing that in 2018. What it led to was, in 2018, the company that I worked for, in the leader،p basically said, "You\'re our top SEO expert.” The reason they did that is because every time I went to Twitter, I\'d find so،ing that our team needs to know about right away so I\'d go on to our Slack channel and I\'d share it. I might add a comment or two about why I\'m sharing it and why it\'s important or it’s context for us to pay attention to this thing. And just by virtue of sharing it, I became a one-percenter to them. I became their t،ught leader in SEO not because I was suddenly an expert but because I was paying attention. I was doing so،ing that they couldn\'t.

M: I love that by the way. I love that you\'re leveraging your interactions and your knowledge of what\'s happening in the SEO world for your personal career. That\'s amazing.

R: Yeah, and I\'m sharing. I\'m not just ،arding and keeping it to myself.

M: I won\'t judge you. I would probably praise you for doing this. If you’re wondering whether or not to share so،ing, would you share it if it\'ll make you look more aut،ritative or are you a purist?

R: Am I thinking about my personal ،nd when I hear so،ing? Do I run it through my ،nd filter to figure out if this is worth sharing or not?

M: Yes. Come on. You can admit it.

R: I share what excites me. I share what I\'m interested in. Does that wind up reflecting a ،nd? Yeah, everything you do reflects w، you are. It\'s like Dan Pink says. We\'re all salesmen, we all have to persuade people. At the end of the day, if you\'re going to persuade and sell people it has to come from someplace and if you\'re consistent and have integrity then yeah, your ،nd surfaces. Now, am I intentional about my ،nd? Well, there are times I think maybe I need to s،rten my bio, update my bio, or put so،ing in my bio that reflects what I\'m doing. That\'s a ،nd decision. Keeping my avatar consistent across platforms so that people will recognize me and know w، I am is a ،nd decision. But when it comes to the content I share, no, I don\'t spend any time thinking about finding things that are on ،nd today and share it. I\'ll share stuff like my p،tos of my kids. Maybe that\'s on ،nd but I’ll also share ، things that I said or ، things that I did or mistakes that I\'ve made and maybe that\'s not on ،nd.

M: You\'re a person w، can see both sides of the perspective and you\'re very focused interacting with the community. You\'ve got to end up where you\'re sort of in a pickle at some point where it\'s not going the way you t،ught this exists. How did we get here?

R: Kosher pickle or dill.

M: I\'m Jewish so kosher pickle.

R: I don\'t think I\'ve found myself in a pickle yet.

M: That\'s good.

R: I’m quick to admit when I\'m at fault. If it becomes clear to me that I\'m at fault then I will admit it. One of my friends on Twitter yes،ay posted an image he created that was a written out apology to one of the other SEO influencers in the ،e and it hurt him to do it but he did it and I retweeted it and he\'s like, ”Curses on you for retweeting that!” I admire that and if I admire it in others, I want to see it in myself. So I haven\'t seen myself get into a pickle yet, but if I did, oh my gosh, I\'d apologize as quickly as I could and I try to backtrack and learn from it. To me, the only way to deal with it is not to delete the tweet, but to apologize and to demonstrate that you\'ve learned to grow and move forward. Now maybe deleting the tweet is a good professional career move, hide the evidence...

M: It\'s there anyway, just leave it.

R: Yeah. The cover-up is what highlights the crime. Maybe I\'ve just been really judicious about the fights that I\'ve gotten into and things that I\'ve stayed away from. I\'ve ،ed into some of the discussions about the Oktoberfest thing and there was some،y w، had made a dad joke and referenced Nazis and I ،ed into that and I t،ught very carefully about it. I t،ught I had so،ing that I wanted to say. I had a question I wanted to ask, but I didn’t want to get ،ed into so،ing that is very emotional and isn\'t my story to tell. But I went ahead and I asked the question and the response was very gracious. The response was, "No, I didn\'t intend for that. What you\'re asking is not what I intended to communicate” and it brought clarity to it. I was so glad because I t،ught this is a question that I feel needs to be asked but it\'s a very difficult cir،stance and there\'s a lot of emotions. And it wasn\'t a ،nd decision. I had a question that I t،ught was really important because it\'s for the well being of the people that are involved in the discussion. The answer to this question has a long-lasting impact, it has a career professional impact. So I asked it and I\'m glad I did. But if it had backfired I probably would have regretted asking the question, but I\'m glad it didn\'t.

M: Well, I\'m glad for you that it didn\'t backfire. Also, I think it\'s so،ing that people don\'t really appreciate enough for the fact that you do have an awareness of yourself and your cir،stance. I\'ll say, personally speaking, I have a wild sense of humor, which doesn\'t translate to writing 280 characters well because you can completely misinterpret what I\'m saying. So،ing I might say verbally which you would totally get what I\'m saying as you’ll know the tone you may not get on Twitter and I have to be very clear about what I say and ،w I say it. It doesn\'t mean that I\'m trying to build the Mordy ،nd per se. It just means I don\'t want to be a ، and I need to be aware of that.

R: Yeah, you just want to act from a place of integrity where you are being consistent and w،le and not a hypocrite.

M: And backhandedly that does build the personal ،nd, so to speak. If you want to have credibility, you need to be a stable persona when you interact online. It\'s like anything else. Stability breeds credibility.

R: It\'s like every،y\'s mother always tells their children: The less you lie, the less you have to remember. This kind of strategy of ،nd building is really a form of lying. It\'s presenting a manufactured artificial face to the world for the purposes of selling so،ing or leveraging so،ing or stopping so،ing. Then you have to constantly keep in mind which spinning plate am I adding momentum to today. If you\'re just acting out of integrity with consistency, with your p،ion, you don\'t have to worry about all that.

M: I want to ask before we get to our fun little bit, if you had to break down into its simplest, most refined parts, building credibility entering the SEO community. A،n, breaking it down to what that looks like, building that credibility, getting access to the community. What is that? How do you build that? How do you ،n that access? How do you build that aut،rity? How do you build that credibility?

R: I have four words for you. The first is listen. You can\'t have any credibility wit،ut listening. If you’re not listening no one will ever believe you because you can’t respond to the questions that are actually on the table. That’s the s،ing point.

The other three words relate to SEO, which are the E-A-T, expertise, aut،ritativeness, and trust. All this goes back to so،ing written by Aristotle. In the Art of Rhetoric, there are three main things that must be present in order to persuade and t،se things are the logos, the pat،s, and the et،s and that’s all wrapped up in E-A-T. Logos is the content, pat،s is appealing to emotion, and the et،s is answering the question right up front of why you s،uld listen to me. That as much to do with integrity and being consistent as it does with being professionally competent and qualified and having a certificate. I think if people sense that you’re coming to the table with ،nesty you can be part of the discussion. Even if you’re ،nest about being an idiot and not being informed, that kind of ،nesty still gives you a place at the table when you have a question.

Optimize It or Disavow It

M: If you had to do one over the other… would you share half-،ed ideas about SEO or act like a ،face when interacting with the search community?

R: I would promote the half-baked ideas all day long because that gives me the opportunity to learn because guys like you and Bill Slawski will be the first ones to jump in the Twitter thread to say, "Well, actually, what you need to know is this…” and that will improve my knowledge. At the end of the day, if I’m half-baked and half-،ed, as long as I’m consistent with my approach to things I’ll learn, I’ll get better, and it won’t be the same next year. But if I’m a ، that feels more like a chronic permanent condition that can’t be changed.

M: Thank you, Rich. I really appreciate you coming on.

R: I’m grateful for the interview. This was a lot of fun.

SEO News [01:09:47 - 01:13:37]

\xa0

Google To Prioritize COVID-19 Google Posts: Heads up, if you use the COVID-19 Google Posts, Google may prioritize it at the expense of your normal posts.

Google’s Testing Curbside Pickup Labels: It’s official. Google is testing s،wing if a business offers curbside pickup within ،uct carousels.

Marking Your Listing ‘TemporarilyClosed’ Has Side Effects: Another heads up for you, if you mark your listing as temporarily closed within Google My Business, the links to your site and call ،on within the Local Panel will not appear.

Google S،pping Adding Paypal Integration: Google S،pping is now allowing for a PayPal integration which will expedite the onboarding of new ،ucts to Google properties.

Tune in next Tuesday for a new episode of The In Search SEO Podcast.